So Lisa, for the very first time, I heard

the phrase shame storm. And I didn't know what it meant. I was

working with a coaching client, and this person brought up shame

storm. And I was like, oh, okay, this is outside of my common

vocabulary, maybe I need to look something up. And this person

mentioned, identifying as a white person, but spinning in

this shame storm that was really hard to spin out of in order to

be a useful ally. And so I thought to myself, let me put

this on my radar as far as a word that we may want to add to

our operational global glossary, if you will, because it sounds

like something that could be useful in our work. Have you

ever heard of shame storming?

I haven't. And I absolutely do not want to

be in the middle of it. Because it sounds horrible.

Right? Right. Right. It I know it just

it feels like a spin like a spin cycle that you can't get

yourself out of.

Oh, my gosh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. And so the first place

that I found this language was under Brene Brown's work. So I

think we should talk about it.

Sounds good. Let's do it.

I'm Dr. Shaunna Payne Gold and I go by

she/her/her pronouns.

And I'm Dr. Lisa Ingarfield. And I go by

she/her/hers.

Welcome to [un]phazed a podcast to

disrupt your normal and challenge your brain to go the

distance.

So we know that Burnett Brene, Brown is pretty prolific, let's

just say that anyone that's been connected with Oprah Winfrey and

been kind of catapulted in their work along Oprah, obviously, is

a name that most people will recognize. And what's

interesting is that based on my little bit of research, not

having read her work, but mostly have been watching her TED

talks, and so forth, what I realized is that she categorizes

herself as a shame scholar, meaning that she does research

on shame, her scholarship is focused on it, how it develops,

etc. And so Brene talks about shame and guilt being two

different things. And I'm like, what, my brain is still trying

to process what she means by this. And so, you know, you and

I least a, we've heard, obviously, of white guilt, you

know, we have heard of that pretty often. And, you know,

this belief that white people have this collective

responsibility for harm and racist treatment of people, etc.

So heard of that before. But this shame storming and the

guilt as well. She's kind of parsing these out and to do

different things. So apparently, guilt is something that's

helpful, but shame may not be. And so I'm just trying to kind

of parse these out. I'm trying to get these definitions

together here. So yeah, I'm not a Brene Brown scholar. But

clearly she's she's on to something because people are

reading her work and trying to figure themselves out through

that lens of this shame storm.

Yeah, that's interesting, because I'm

also not a Brene Brown scholar, I have read very little of her

work, which perhaps is quite shocking, but I just haven't

ever gotten around to it. I wonder, you know, because you

and I have talked about guilt, white guilt, male guilt,

heterosexual guilt, however, it manifests in the context of

privilege, and how it's just not useful getting stuck in it,

right? Because that really limits your capacity to be an

ally in those moments where maybe you are. What's the word

I'm looking for paralyzed or not paralyzed? That is an ableist

word where you are frozen and unable to do anything, but

perhaps sin. According to Brene, brown, we might be slightly off

there. And actually, it's a shame that is creating the

frozen moment and not guilt if she's arguing that guilt is

productive, because then I would even say, so is the concept of

quote unquote, white guilt wrong, is it actually quote

unquote, white shame, is how we should be thinking about it.

Right. Right, right. Because when the

way I'm understanding it is, shame is defined as something

that's intensely painful and intensely painful experience of

feeling flawed, or unworthy of love and connection. Now I can

see being frozen by shame and guilt. Now, this is when it gets

interesting because guilt is supposed to be this helpful

tool, especially if it's leveraged well. And so, you

know, I'm just trying to work through in my brain. There may

be some groups or some identities, broadly, speaking

broadly, some groups that have so much shame that it indeed

freezes them from doing the work of allyship. And then in my, in

my opinion, there may be some folks that don't have enough of

it and absolve them from doing the work because they may be

self absorbed in some ways. And so I'm just wrestling with it

with that concept of, you know, at, at what point do we use

either as a reason, an excuse, a perfectly logical explanation

right not to wrestle with other identity issues. Right? So

that's where I'm kind of caught up with this. Because, you know,

we're, yes, absolutely. We are calling white male and any other

privileged individual and whatever identity group to think

through what does it mean to kind of hijack one identity and

then we get into the oppression Olympics again? How do we stay

out of oppression Olympics.

I did not have a good answer for that.

Right, right. It's just this is okay. So now I'm like going in

my head, it's really, this is just a really interesting way of

rethinking about this, because we, when we think about guilt,

we've talked about it before that it often manifests in

defense, right? So I feel guilty that I'm white, and so my having

kind of knee jerk reaction to that is a defensive response

around well, I didn't own slaves, right? That's no fault.

That's a generic kind of example. Right.

Right.

So but is, is that so then is what's the

response? Is the defensive response actually a product of

guilt? Or is it a product of shame? Because I'm feeling like

shame is deeper? Right? Like it's, I shame in the context

that I no shame it's often is related to some very different

things, but it's destructive. It's very destructive. And it

silences people.

Yeah, yeah. That's right.

So then I don't know. So maybe defense

because it's an odd verbal articulation often is guilt. And

then shame is a much deeper, more unnerving feeling that

doesn't, that people with privilege don't even articulate.

But that's but that's maybe what's driving guilt. I don't

know. I feel like I'm going around in circles here.

No, no, no, no, I think you're getting

somewhere because, you know, I always bring up that wonderful

chapter on race on the book, Untamed by Glennon Doyle, where

she talks about this addiction, if you will, to racism by this

country, and how we literally have to detox ourselves from our

addiction to racist systems. And the notion of how most white

people, the worst thing you can call them is a racist. So

everything in their being functions against being labeled

that, whether you firmly believe that you are not part of a

racist system, or whether you feel guilt about what you have

that you did not necessarily earn, and it rolled down to you

historically, I think there is some defense mechanism, at

least, to the notion of racism, because we find it really hard

for people to make the distinction between racist and

racism. Usually, I'm talking about systems now I have no

problem naming that someone is a racist. However, most of the

time, nine times out of 10, if I'm talking about race, I'm

talking about a system within which we all function. Now we

can get down to the racist, but I'm starting with the system

that enables many people to be racist, even in the passive

sense of the word. And so given that, I think there's something

to what you're saying around how people choose to defend

themselves. I don't think any white person would willingly

take it if someone said to their face, I believe that you are

either racist, or you have racist tendencies. And they

would not respond in some type of way. They wouldn't just take

it and say, maybe you're right. I don't know. Let me think about

it. I think it ends up being more of ah, yeah, might have

made a mistake, but let me give you the 90% of me that's not

racist. You know, there's always some type of explanation or

defense against it. So I think, you know, those types of

feelings of guilt and shame, still try to bat away even the

notion of racism or racist individual. I just feel like

it's almost like a boxer that, you know, never lets their guard

down. It's like, I'm a white person, I'm keeping my guard up.

Because at many points in my life, someone is going to accuse

me of being a racist, or being part of a racist system. What do

I have to do to defend that and show all the things I've done

and how kind I am to people in all these Other performative

things, which may be that deeper level of shame that you're

mentioning? Maybe.

Yeah, I mean, because shame. You know, I

think as Brene kind of captures it is very painful, right. And

it's this feeling of unworthiness. So yeah, I'm

thinking to myself, like if someone said that I was racist,

to my face, it would definitely contradict the sense of self

that I have, or the construction of my identity, right. And so I

think the feeling there might be like, if I had said something,

and the response was, you're racist, because you've said that

something, I think there would be like a veneer of guilt about

saying the thing and then wishing I had never said the

thing, right. But underneath that, I think, for me, it's

would be a deeply painful experience. And so I would be

ashamed. And I think that shame would come from this internal

versus external perception of me. Right, like, trying, and the

lack of alignment, at least from that person's perspective.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Who you thought you

were versus how you're perceived.

Right. And I think that that is that feels

more about shame than about guilt, don't you think?

Mm hmm. Yeah, I agree. Because I could

see someone being deeply hurt by that deeply hurt. Yeah, even in

the face of all of their work and intentions. And yeah, I

could see that for sure.

So then, to your point earlier about some

people maybe need to feel more guilt, because if guilt is

productive, and can kind of drive us to make changes, then

so you know, I'm a woman, so I'm oppressed based on my womanhood.

If I say I'm dealing with it's, it's, you know, it's already

hard work being a woman in this world. I don't have time to feel

guilty. Because of x, y z's experience. Right. Like I'm

trying to focus on the womanhood.

Right, right. Yeah, I think that's a

covert way of playing oppression Olympics, frankly, as true is

that may feel I think it might be a covert way of playing

oppression Olympics, and kind of watering down and diminishing,

how we all can play a part in everyone's liberation. You know,

like, I don't feel that it's okay. And hopefully people know,

my body of work and what I've done and what I haven't done,

yes, as a black and female human being, I know that I'm oppressed

in certain areas. But that does not absolve me from being

concerned about my Asian siblings, or being concerned

about my LGBT folk. And that doesn't absolve me for doing

that. So I'm saying that my identities and the identities

that I belong to, however oppressed they are, that is my

reason, perfectly logical one, my perfectly logical reason for

them not being concerned with other identity groups, ignoring

slights against those particular groups, like I've seen this

literally happen in action where someone will be up in arms, if

they or a family member, or a friend is called the "N" word,

but then you're okay with either turning away, or simply ignoring

when someone else is called some type of derogatory term. I'm not

okay with that. And I know that it's a lot because it is truly a

distinct burden to carry your own oppressed identity groups.

But to me, I feel like that should sharpen our spidey senses

as well. If you've been through it, or your identity groups have

experienced it, then you should pick up on it when it's

happening to other groups as well.

Right. But is to then okay, so then you

call that person out? Right? Based on everything you just

said, like, why are you known? Why are you not frustrated,

angry about this slur that was used when you are about this

other slur, and they respond with? I don't have time to be

thinking about all these other groups because I'm living this

really oppressed life. Does that come from guilt? Or does that

come from shame?

See, that's what I don't know. I part

of me feels like, it's, it's neither and should be more. I

feel like it's neither and should be more because I feel

like, you know, it's, if I say, I'm too busy being black and

female to worry about my Asian siblings, then to me, it feels

like I don't have enough guilt, meaning that if we're looking at

guilt, I'm not being adaptive. This is not helpful. I have

absolutely no psychological discomfort with what other

people are feeling. right alongside me. And much of it is

similar to my own experience. So you know, for example, let's

talk about Loving versus Virginia and same sex marriage.

That's one of the key areas where I see my short hair here,

it should be shorter as much as I pull it out. Because I'm

thinking to myself, as African Americans in this country that

have wanted the freedom, first of all, to marry each other, as

African Americans, we didn't even have that legally, because

we were property, we weren't people. So jumping, the broom is

quite, quite literal, in black households, and relationships.

In fact, I still have my my broom, in my, in my storage. So

as black people, we weren't allowed to marry each other,

then moving forward with Loving versus Virginia, in certain

states, black people were not allowed to marry white people,

or white people were not allowed to marry black people. In fact,

white people were disciplined, if you will, for marrying anyone

with one drop of black blood. You have that? And then it

doesn't make sense to you that individuals who are same sex

could not marry up to some point. This is the same, we pass

him by the same rock three times. It's the same rock with

different identity groups. And so to me, that's why I'm calling

all of us but I'm definitely speaking as a black woman, I'm

calling more folks who are of oppressed identity groups to

absolutely continue fighting the good fight for our communities,

but also see the very clear parallels in other communities

and not absolve ourselves and say, Oh, well, I ain't got time

to fight their fight. I'm fighting my own fight. Actually,

we're all fighting our fight. We're fighting our fight.

Because, yeah, you can do it to one group, then you can do it to

multiple groups, and you just have Groundhog's Day.

Yeah, I'm one I'm just I'm wondering,

though, like, do you, you meaning the royal you, you know,

put barriers, up psychological barriers up, because you have

experienced so much intersectional oppression? That

to then be called out that you're not sufficiently

advocating or supporting other communities who are experiencing

oppression? Kind of calls into question your sense of self,

again, around being an advocate for social justice, justice

advocate, but it's also around survival. You know, like.

Hmm. Mhmm, yeah, yeah.

So tired. And so that's not shame or

guilt. But I just I wonder, like, if that perspective, isn't

so much self absorption is it as much as it is a survival

strategy in a world that is not made for you?

Oh, the the first word I thought about

as you were describing, that was, I don't know if this is a

term in our DEI world, but just straight up racial fatigue,

racial exhaustion. Like I think it's beyond fatigue. Now, I

think it is exhaustion in many ways where you are tired. And

you know, Lisa, I don't know if this happened for you. But at a

certain time period over the last couple of years, even a

little bit prior to the pandemic, I was so exhausted by

certain things that I did turn the news off, and I didn't, you

know, I wasn't staying up with the news, not because I didn't

care. But because I was truly exhausted, and not quite sure

how much I could personally handle. So I think there's a,

you have a great point as well. It's like, how much of it is not

necessarily shielding oneself from from, you know, being

called whatever is. But it, I don't want to poopoo self care

here, but you see what I'm getting at? It's kind of like

self preservation NIST, kind of sorta. So I do hear that. I do

hear that, you know, how much can you actually handle or not?

And if you can't handle it being okay, with at least not condone?

I don't know. I have a feeling about silence being condoning

certain things.

Yeah. Silence being complicit,

certainly. And I think about, you know, we've talked about,

you know, passing the torch, if you need a break, in dei work,

we've talked about the necessity of self care, self care to

rejuvenate. And I think what we're getting at here is

something a little different. You know, trying to understand

kind of the root of avoidance, right? And if it's, if it's

shame, per Brene, browns definition, then it would be

destructive. And if it's guilt, per her definition, then it can

actually be productive. And there is neither of those things

and I don't have an answer for that. But you know, like so self

care. The self preservation is all very important, certainly,

but that's, I think that comes from a slightly different place

from that exhaustion from that survival. And how shame or guilt

plays into that. I'm not exactly sure but I feel like it yeah,

around it. They're right, like, yeah, not it's not a storm, as

much as it is kind of, I don't know, some soft, pillowy clouds

moving around you or something, right, that you can't quite

touch because you can't quite figure out what it is.

Right. Exactly. Well, and that's the

thing, when you're in the, you know, in the eye of this so

called shame storm, you know, I think it can go either direction

on the spectrum, maybe you don't have any shame at all about

anything, you don't have any guilt about anything at all,

you're busy trying to be you. And either you're oppressed

self, in this world, or your non oppressed self in this world,

there are certain groups that aren't oppressed in many

different ways. So you're still on the spectrum of shame,

nothing to a lot. And both ends could possibly be highly

dysfunctional, depending on how severe they are. And, you know,

so my question is, you know, it's kind of two questions in

one, how do we help people spin out of a shame storm or fear in

them in that privilege? And how do we help oppressed individuals

to think in more parallel ways so that they can at least see

similar oppression across groups? It's there, but it takes

a moment to really think, right, you know, so yeah, I don't want

white and or male and or privileged people to get stuck

in a shame store? Because that's not useful to our work, Lisa?

No, they're stuck there.

It's not useful. Well, and it feels like

shit too right.

Oh gosh, yes.

You know, and I just I'm, as you're

talking, it's just making me think more around. Like, I feel

guilty for saying or doing X like I have, I could potentially

repair that it's redeemable in some way. Right? Like, it's,

whereas shame feels more like I am ashamed of my ancestors, for

example, I can't actually change that. Like, that's just always

there, right? So if I get stuck or wedged in this feeling of

shame about what my ancestors did before me, and how horrific

that was, I can't move forward. It's like an apologizing for it

doesn't make any sense either. Because it wasn't me. So who am

I apologizing for? Right? So that's where I feel like there

might be some differentiation around the guilt or the shame.

So you kind of have to like, almost, I don't mean this to

sound flippant, but it almost feels like that deep, hurt, or

shame that you're feeling about stuff that happened before you

you kind of have to let it go. Because it's not useful, right?

Mm hmm. I mean, not let it go in the sense that you need to

forget it. But let it go in the sense that you have to move

forward. And sure, you're going to fuck up here and there, and

you'll have the feeling. But it won't be that deep rooted sense

of failure or lack of value about who you are. Right?

Right. Right.

Is that making sense?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think

there's a so maybe there's like, you know, when you see an org

chart, and you have like a direct line, so you know, I

write to Lisa or Lisa, or something like that. I feel like

we could do the very same thing in regards to especially white

folks in the United States that may have grandparents, great,

great, great, great grandparents, I even just

downloaded a book, Lisa, about white women who were slave

owners at a particular time. All of that, instead of having a

direct, solid, bold line between yourself and those family

members back historically, that did some things that you may not

be proud of and would not condone today, why not have more

of a faint dotted line to those folks, because you can't

completely erase that history, that still trickles down. But

you can create a bit of space between you and that. So not to

deny it not to say you're ignoring it, but to simply say,

I'm now redefining who I am and who my family is moving forward.

I know differently. And better. My kids know differently and

better, my grandkids will know differently and better. So still

holding on to the history without it completely. Without

having to report to it, if you will. You don't have to be

governed by what great great great great grandma grandpa did.

You just don't?So maybe that's a better visual for just

understanding that because I'm not with white folks ignoring

what their ancestors have done. But I'm also not willing to

allow them to become dysfunctional or not helpful,

unproductive because of it either.

Yeah, it's it's. Yeah, it's like letting

that emotional connection. fade a little bit, not so much that

you are not spurred to action. Right? So maybe it moves. I

don't know, I feel like shame and guilt are connected by a

dotted line, right? Like, and I feel like it probably will take

us reading Brene Brown and or talking about this much longer

to kind of determine that relationship. Maybe they're like

distant cousins or something. I don't know that it's necessarily

like a linear, you move from shame to guilt, guilt being less

powerful than shame. I don't know that. It's that simple. But

it does kind of feel like when you put those two together,

guilt is easier to move through. And shame is more. stigmatizing.

Maybe that is a word.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I'm wondering,

too, if if shame is like, it's almost like quicksand where it

sucks you in and sucks you under

Oh, that's a good question.

And you know, that that's what it's

remindingme of at the moment. So, yeah, that's the first thing

that I started thinking about was oh, it's so debilitating. So

debilitating. And, and with that, you know, again, not

useful, whereas, so if, let me make sure I'm not completing my

words here. So if shame is quicksand, I think I don't think

you can swim through through shame. I think you can get

through guilt, though. Maybe? Maybe,

yeah. But now I'm like, you know, all the

counselors who are listening are like, No, we can do we can do

work around the kind of emotional and physical feelings

of shame and people can move beyond shame. And again, I don't

think we're necessarily saying you can't move beyond shame.

Right. But maybe it's just deeper. It's harder. And I

think, yeah, and then that's where your mentee, your coachee

got stuck, right, because the work to perhaps move through the

kind of deeply felt emotional burden of shame is much harder.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Especially when, you know, you're you're trying to move

through something without being debility debilitated by it. And

so, you know, given that, I don't know, I wish I was more of

a mental health professional, because I wonder if there's a

connection of how to move through that. Because it can,

you know, think about how long you may carry shame or guilt and

what that can do over a long term period. You know, that

that, to me is also interesting, too. I have no idea. But I

wonder what happens. It's one thing to have a pang of guilt.

It's another thing to carry it for years and years and years.

Yeah. And so I think maybe that what you

just said there pang of guilt, perhaps is another way to

distinguish the two, right? Like, if you're carrying

something for a really long time, maybe it's less guilt and

more shame.

Mm hmm. Yep.

You know, maybe we're totally way off base

here. Because I mean, guilt can be very painful to maybe it's

just more transitory, you know, right. Maybe it is more like

swimming through peanut butter than getting caught in quicksand

or something.

All right. How many analogies can we

put in in one podcast y'all?

I feel like, I'm going going off the

rails here with that, but

Well, you know, look, this is what I

think, Lisa, I think what we should do is, I think we should

let the listeners weigh in on this particular podcast. I think

we should tag Brene Brown so she can let us know if this is a

complete train wreck or whether we're on to something. I'm sure

she will send us free copies of her books that we have not read.

I'm sure she'll do that.

And then we'll get straightened out here.

How about that?

That sounds great. I love your plan.

That's my plan. Look, I have not above

tagging someone with a big name. They come and tell us that's

garbage. Okay, so Brene This is my this is my wallowing of,

please come help us. Would you like to be on our podcast and

tell us the difference between shame and guilt? And how that

applies to our little world of endurance sport? Would you

please do that?

Yeah, I think it's a great idea.

We're all the way in it. We're all the

way in it. So but yeah, I think there's something to it. And I'm

calling us to to think about these shame storms. Are they

useful? Are they not? How to get ourselves out of them and even

how to identify when they occur? I think there's there's

something to it that we should consider moving forward. Yeah.

All right. So let's wrap up with our

segment. Hell yeah, hell nah, Hell yeah.

Hell no. Hell yeah. was on point over the

holidays. Okay, because, you know, when you're just sitting

on the couch thinking about the workout that you didn't do and

you're watching TV, you're watching commercials. And one of

my new favorite commercials now is the Clear Blue digital

pregnancy test. That's called no matter what the result And I sat

there, and I was watching it. And I realized how much I had

been somewhat brainwashed into thinking. Even though obviously,

that's not the case, I have been brainwashed into thinking, Oh,

yay, pregnant. Oh, happy, happy. That had been how I've been

brainwashed to expect at least entertainment and TV to show up,

right. And so when there's this commercial, that gives vignettes

of a number of different women who are about to take their

tests, all of them are a different life circumstances.

And the, the pregnancy or not really doesn't matter. Because

it's not the default, Yay, I'm happy that a baby is coming.

It's a no matter what the result the test is, I need the test to

be accurate. And I need it to be whatever works for me wherever I

am in my life. So you know, that attorney or that partner, the

the woman that just became partner in her firm, a not

pregnant, maybe ideal for her at the moment. So therefore, she's

happy for those reasons. That's one of the perspectives that we

have not entertained in a long while now. So I was very

impressed. So Clearblue, that thank you, I'm very impressed.

Because it and this is no judgment on however you would

like the results to show up. I'm just grateful that they showed

options for how the result can show up and women have a

positive response. Parents have a positive response. I think the

next level of representation on the Clearblue pregnancy test

commercials is how can we fold non binary folks into this

particular aspect of testing. So anyway, good job so far on to

the next.

Yeah, that's actually freakin awesome.

Because I'm now thinking about my socialization. Also, when I

think of pregnancy tests, I always think of heterosexual

couples, and absolute joy when they get the two bars or

whatever it is, right? That's positive. And so acknowledging

that that is not always a happy moment, nor are everyone is

everyone in a heterosexual settled relationships, right?

Actually quite groundbreaking, which it shouldn't be for

That's right. That's right. Exactly,

exactly. So I was impressed.

Okay, while staying kind of in the medical

field for our hell nah. This week, at the end of last year,

we stumbled across a New York Times article that talked about

adolescent girls and suicide attempts. And so we find this to

be extraordinarily troubling. I mean, it's not a new phenomenon,

obviously. But there is a significant increase. And likely

that has to do with COVID and isolation, but a whole host of

other issues related to what it means to be an adolescent girl

in this world and the pressures that they are facing. And

certainly we can appreciate that in the context of endurance

sport, right? Because no through Dr. Stacy Sims work, and others

work that adolescent girls face a dip in their performance right

around when they get their period or coming up to that, and

then they drop out of sports. So they're not getting that

activity either. And so that can have detrimental effects.

Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's a

sobering hell nah for us, because we talk about girls ever

so often on this podcast, but obviously, we're concerned about

this particular population. And, you know, it really makes me sad

to think about this. Lisa, I was talking with a colleague about

this in another setting where we were talking about students,

college students suicide attempts, and how even on some

college campuses, there's an accepted average rate of suicide

attempts when, when it comes to certain very high pressure

fields, also by identity group. So for example, there's one very

large public institution that I used to work at long ago, that

they knew that there was going to be an average of suicide

attempts in their medical school because it's such a high

pressure environment. And usually there were a lot of

minoritized college students or medical students in that

particular school. So they would in fact be very happy when the

number was less than the average percentage each year because it

was still happening, obviously, but was it was happening at a

lesser rate. I never want to normalize a "oh, we should

expect 20% 25%" I don't want to normalize one human being that

attempts or feels the the suicidal ideation that comes

along with that so huge hell nah, I don't like it. I don't

like it.

And we'll include a link to that article

in our show notes, folks, so you can read it if you would like

Yeah, not a happy way to end this podcast.

Not at all. Not at all. So, you know,

Lisa, let's call our podcast listeners too if there are other

things that we can do or even organizations that you're aware

of that work to support adolescent girls, especially

when it comes to suicide attempts or suicidal ideation,

mental health, let us know that as well. We would love to know

some of those resources for for girls when it comes to this

particular issue as well. So help us to be a better ally when

it comes to this particular area.

Yeah, great. All right, folks. That's

it for this week, we will catch you next week.

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Unphased, a podcast produced by loud feisty

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edited and produced by the fabulous

Lindsay Glassford.

Email us at info@unphasedpodcast.com and

find us on social @tritodefi, @drgoldspeaks or

@outspokenwomenintri. I'm Lisa.

I'm Shaunna thanks for listening.

Stay unfazed, folks. See you next time.